CTM - Justin Brady
===
Justin Brady: [00:00:00] never, ever, ever try to build a following from scratch. Never try to, you know, blast people. Instead Um, find out what their trust channels are,
Welcome to Connect to Market. I'm Casey Cheshire. Join the conversation with the marketing leaders driving the fastest growing B2B brands. We're sponsored by Ringmaster, building B2B podcasts and communities to reconnect you with your audience
Casey Cheshire: Okay. I hit the button. Holy crap, it's happening. I'm about to interview the interviewer. Maybe just call this episode "The Interviewer." I gotta tell you, my guest today, I'm excited to introduce you to him. Uh, he is an absolute legend, and you know what? He's also a straight-shooting, humble guy because when he described himself, he said, "Hey, PR, comms, and GTM.
I'm a PR, comms, and GTM guy." But let me brag for him on his behalf. He is a marketing leader, a thought [00:01:00] leader, a podcast strategist, and a pro interviewer. He's the guy where I'm listening to his interviews going, "Huh," and writing things down in, as ways that I can improve my own interviewing. He's been podcasting for longer than I've been alive.
I don't actually know that that's true, but it sounded great. But, but honestly, he's worked with founders of huge startups, with president strategists. He's even previously hosted the stream for the Global Peter Drucker Forum every year. So he's doing a lot of things, writing for The Wall Street Journal, and then just every other mag you can imagine, every other publication.
He was even nominated for an Emmy. Again, PR, comms, and GTM guy, founder and owner of Cultivate, Justin Brady. Welcome to the show
Justin Brady: That's the best intro I've ever had.
Casey Cheshire: All right
Justin Brady: I, I wanna meet that person.
Casey Cheshire: know. That's you. That's you. Dang, dude
Justin Brady: full disclosure on the Emmy nomination, I didn't even do anything to get it. I worked on a project and someone, the producer or the [00:02:00] creator of this projec- I did, like, I lifted stuff or, or did tiny things, he ended up just putting my name on the application. So we got... I got a, a unfair or undeserved Emmy nomination.
So there's the backstory there.
Casey Cheshire: Well,
Justin Brady: thanks for having me on your show, Casey.
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: to Market podcast, honored to be on the show
Casey Cheshire: Yeah. Well, I'm, I'm glad to have you on here. You know, y- I've been impressed at the different podcasts that I've seen you host, create and host. Uh, and so to have you on here to talk more about that and how we can better connect to our market, I'm game. But you know what? To ask you my first question, I can't do it alone.
I have to enlist the help of this giant blue foam finger right here, and I need to ask you, Justin,
Justin Brady: What is happening?
Casey Cheshire: you're like, "What show am I on now?"
Justin Brady: Is happening?
Casey Cheshire: Justin, what is the number one thing that marketers need to do in order to connect to their market?
Justin Brady: Ooh, yeah. The number one thing that people need to do to connect to their market is internal understand- on internal [00:03:00] communication. And everyone always puts this on the back burner. They always think this is a minor thing, not a big deal. It is everything. Because once you get the internal communication, once you understa- you have internal alignment, then and only then can you go external. And it's really, really hard for a, a bunch of different ... You have a bunch of different stakeholders, right? A lot, a lot of founders. I work a ton with founders, not just exclusively, but I do work with a lot of founders and tech companies that are inventing new things. And in those situations, they'll be like, "Well, we have You know, we have customers, we have vendors, we have investors, we have stakeholders, we have employees, and the messaging's different for everybody.
And I'm like, "It's not. It's not. It's not different for everybody." Um, i- you know, like Uber might be a good example, like the classic example that some of them cite. Well, Uber going after riders and they're going after drivers, so two totally different audiences. I'm like, "No, it's not two different audiences.
It's the same community and same tribe." [00:04:00] So, um, the person who is, you know, different, they're, they're playing different roles, but they're the same community and same tribe. And the first thing any startup, any founder, any CMO needs to do is make sure you have internal alignment. Um, I always say the best way to do that, and this is always the default standard before I work with any new client on the GTN PR and comms side, is I come in there, we have a knockdown, drag-out, blood, like, blood-gushing on the floor session.
Just kidding, no blood. But, um, we do check phones. You're not allowed to use your phone. Um, I need eye contact. You need eye contact with your colleagues and f- and other executives, and we find out what's your peak and your path, because once we find your peak and your path, we can define your purpose. And once we know what your purpose is as an organization, we know who your customer is, we know how to message.
Sales, marketing, internal, HR can all message the exact same way, like the same idea, without talking the same script. It's the same idea, [00:05:00] their own unique way. And so that's really important because some of your biggest sales, some of your biggest market opportunities might come from someone HR knew. we, we, we can't assume, and, and as you know as a marketer and all your listeners, like, everyone doesn't go through your click funnels. They're not gonna go through your nice little thing.
Casey Cheshire: Yeah.
They're like following along, just doing only the next step.
Justin Brady: Not gonna
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: They're going to come through a connection you have.
They're going to come through, um, one of your salespeople knows a guy that knows a guy, or someone in HR. HR knows someone, or a new intern that has a dad that works at this giant company and says, "Hey, Mike, I just got a job here. I'm a..." These are totally different entry points, and to neglect the fact that you don't have internal alignment in messaging and internal alignment on vision and mission and peak and purpose and path, um, is to neglect, 95% of your sales.
So the first thing I always do, the first number one thing is to understand what your company purpose is, and to do that, you find [00:06:00] out what your peak and your path are. I can expand deeper on those, but a peak is basically, like, the, the, you know, mankind should conquer Everest. It doesn't involve your company.
That's just that big, ambitious thing that should happen, and then your path is, and to conquer Everest, our company will do X, Y, and Z. You know, we'll get the best team, we'll get the best strategy, we'll get the best equipment, whatever. So every organization needs to have an understanding of what their purpose is, and that comes from understanding your peak and your path.
Casey Cheshire: All right, let's roll our sleeves up. Uh, w- for your own organization, what is your peak and path?
Justin Brady: my peak is all ideas deserve a fair shake. Um, because one of the things that has driven me crazy from, from childhood is that there can be amazing ideas. I see this with founders all the time. They'll have an incredible idea. I'm like, oh my gosh, this is like, this is historic. And they just assume that their audience sees the same thing they do, which is they're like, I built this for [00:07:00] my customer. Clearly they're gonna see the value and they don't.
Casey Cheshire: Mm-hmm.
Justin Brady: They don't see the value. And there's this breakdown. I call it the founder baby bias. It's like when parents have a infant and they're like, oh my gosh, this is the best baby ever born. You show it off and everyone else is like, it's a baby. I've seen thousands of them.
I'm gonna see thousands more. And there's that, they're like, wait, I don't get it.
Casey Cheshire: And your, and furthermore, yours is ugly
Justin Brady: that could be a problem, right? And so, um, yeah, the, the, the first thing is, um, my peak would be all ideas get a fair shake. then my path would be I amplify inventive people
Casey Cheshire: Wow
Justin Brady: And so I amplify inventive people so that they can, you know, get customers so that, that they can get the attention. But deep down inside me is this, I don't want to call it a vendetta, um, or, but it, it's... Maybe it is a vendetta. Uh, maybe it goes back to childhood when I saw great ideas being ignored, or my first in- like, my first [00:08:00] job when I suggested ideas and got ignored by the boss and later saw them implemented.
And, um, ever since childhood, I've become obsessed with that. Like, if leaders, marketing leaders, you're included in this, would just listen to their teams, they would have all these groundbreaking, innovative ideas. The problem is not a lack of creativity in organizations. Um, the problem is usually leadership who doesn't listen to the ideas already in their company.
This is what the Wall Street Journal piece was about, um, back in twen- Is it 2012? Something
Casey Cheshire: Dame
Justin Brady: um, that's where all this comes from, is, um, you know, I see that mismatch between the, the, the enormous chasm-like Grand Canyon gap between great ideas and actual execution of those ideas, or actual distribution of those ideas.
And founders don't see it. Many CMOs don't see it
Casey Cheshire: And they're getting shot down, what, at the moment they're being uttered? Are they... [00:09:00] What, what's the, what's the part that kills most of them?
Justin Brady: It's usually, um, boy, Matthew May talks a lot about this. It's, uh, sometimes it's, uh, it's a bunch of different reasons. Sometimes it's a not invented here bias, I think is what he calls it. Um, don't remember which book he... Matthew E. May, by the way. Great, great... His stuff is, ugh, it's so good. Um, and he kinda talks about how if it's not invented here at our company, that it's a dumb idea.
So ide- you know, like, and this is, so many of the problems you're suffering from at a, in an organization have been solved somewhere else. Just go copy the idea. And, you know, you don't need a r- you know, and I'm not saying blow through copyright law, but people have solved problems already.
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: you don't have to resolve it. Um, but you know, some of it's arrogance, some of it's not listening. There's a huge listening problem. The thing in the journal was, uh, listening, empathy, and trust being the three components to a creative organization. I call it the let principle. You don't force creativity, you let it happen, because everyone is creative.
And I g- I'll get pushback on that sometime, [00:10:00] "Justin, I'm not creative, I'm an accountant." Well, I happen to... My attorney that handles some business stuff for me, and, um, accountants that I've worked with in the past, actually remarkably creative. don't sell yourselves short. Um, but anyway, that's the, uh, it's lack of listen- listening.
It's just you're not listening for intent. You're not trying to really hear what someone's saying. Not everyone's a gifted communicator, so sometimes it requires asking follow-up questions. Uh, it's a lack of empathy, and I'm not saying like, "Woe is you" empathy. I'm saying like, try to put yourself in someone else's shoes.
If they're sharing an idea with you, there's a reason, especially if you're their superior, they're probably nervous AF.
Casey Cheshire: Mm-hmm.
Justin Brady: put yourself in their shoes and realize this took a lot of strength to say this. And then trust is important because I'm a huge Gallup, uh, like Clifton StrengthsFinder fan. what that taught me is that people are extremely unique in their strengths. Like people can literally see things you cannot see And so sometimes, the innovation is only apparent to the [00:11:00] innovator.
And sometimes you just have to trust people. Now, that doesn't mean saying, know, "Well, okay, great, you know, John, we're... This- so I don't trust you. I, I don't know, I don't think this idea's gonna work, but we'll give you a $100 million budget." It's not what it looks like. It can look like small steps to prove things out. And by the way, employees, if you're, if you have, if you report to a CMO, and you're a director level, and they're not l-... You can also use this as a tool to get your ideas implemented, which is, "Hey, let's just try it. Let's just test it." Then they can't shoot down the idea. It's harder to shoot down a test. So, um, this goes both ways.
You can manage up this way, you can manage down this way, but sometimes trusting is important, and as a leader you're, you're not going to see the true innovative ideas, so check your ego. And sometimes just trust your team with a small, small, little tidbit. I think Dan Ariely is the one who told me about this strategy that you can implement internally.
He did it with some of his own researchers. So, uh, you know, rock solid strategy
Casey Cheshire: Dang. Uh, I definitely [00:12:00] remember his, his name. His name pops up all the time. Um, so taking us back to peak in the path, you shared with us your example. How does one come up with a peak? I- it almost sounds like peak might be harder 'cause that's like the limitless thing
Justin Brady: Dude, it's really hard. Um, it's, uh, I, I, I wrote this massive guide on how to, um, do this whole process. Uh, y- you can Google it. You can just Google trust channels, and that'll probably come up. It's a massive... Basically, you can rip off my entire strategy. I, I noticed that I was talking to a lot of founders who were like, "Dude, I'd love to do this, but I can't drop 15,000 bucks to hire you on day one.
That's not gonna happen." So the way I do it is I sit in a room, and I'm an interviewer. Like, you know, I've, I've done podcasting for a while. I know how to get information out of people. And so I just grind them down for hours and, uh, just wear them down for hours with their team. I get... I, um, that usually creates a little positive [00:13:00] conflict, and I've seen so many times in executive teams that have been working with each other, co-founders even, for two years, that'll be like, "Whoa, wait. You say it that way? That's what... What..."
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: the other one's like, "Wait, I didn't know you said it... Oh, that's a... I like that bet." Like, it's amazing the lack of communication that happens in an organization. So what I do is I'm just the one who goes and listens to everybody,
Casey Cheshire: Got it
Justin Brady: them money to do that. So I just go, and I listen. I listen when someone trails off, or I listen when someone says, "You know what? Never mind." I'm like, "No, no, no. What was that?" And so I'm just a, a pair of listening ears, just strategic listener. Um, and I'm able to capture a lot of that stuff, find where the disagreements are, and I push people.
I get things uncomfortable. Um, not on purpose, but I just get people in a position where they let things go that maybe they shouldn't have. But that's good because it kind of gets the, gets the barriers to come down. So that's the only way I do it, is I do a full day session with my clients and where we, you know, just really work on this. Uh, and then [00:14:00] over the next 30 days, we dial things in
Casey Cheshire: Man.
Justin Brady: But
Casey Cheshire: So
Justin Brady: It's hard to distill your entire organization and what your lofty peak is. I think old school, we may call this a vision statement now, and that, now that's just been totally, like, destroyed. Like, no one even knows what a vision statement is. So I don't, I stay away from some of the older language.
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: yeah, it can be just brutal to get there. But my gosh, when y- when you get there, um, and you see your audience transcends industries. Everyone thinks their audience is a demographic. It's rarely a demographic. It's usually a set of values.
Casey Cheshire: Hmm
Justin Brady: is the, the guy who created the Valuegraphics database.
There's another one for y'all to Google. Um, he beli- he says demographics agree of the time, and valuegraphics, he's created a huge valuegraphics set, agree around 70 to 80% of the time. So, um, when you understand your peak and your path, you also understand who your audience is by value, not based on age or gender [00:15:00] or background, 'cause those things You know, I know tons of people my age, gender, background, same industry, and I don't align on anything at
Casey Cheshire: Yeah,
Justin Brady: it would be dumb to demographically target me, right?
Casey Cheshire: Man, we got a lot of everything. So it sounds like we don't solve peak by listening to a single podcast episode. Sounds like it's more intense than that
Justin Brady: Yeah. I mean, if I, I've basically written out the formula, but as far as how people get there, it's basically let the guard down and figure it out kind of for
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: term. I mean, if it was easier, I guess I wouldn't have a job, so
Casey Cheshire: That's true. How long does it take?
Justin Brady: it depends. It, some clients 30 days, some clients a week. Um, so I mean, there have been cases where some clients knocked it out in 24 hours.
Casey Cheshire: Wow
Justin Brady: on pre-alignment. Like, sometimes the founders are pretty aligned, the t- executive team, uh, the marketing department, whoever, um, is, is pretty aligned.
They just don't have the [00:16:00] words. In those cases, it's a little easier. there's structural, um, or foundational disalignment or misalignment, then it's a little harder.
Casey Cheshire: Yeah.
Justin Brady: You... I have seen team members leave companies because they finally realized, "Oh, wait. This is where we're heading? I'm just not in it. This is not my thing." But that's good. That's totally
Casey Cheshire: It is good
Justin Brady: want someone in your organization, not, not saying they're negative people. These are great people that decided to leave. But you don't want, um, uh, you don't want this disalignment in your organization when your co-founder or your CMO or whoever is going out and preaching a totally different story. That's so toxic for your brand. You should probably know that up front. That way, and this is why I do this with everybody, is to get everybody aligned, and then you can tell the whole team, "Look, here's our peak. Here's our path. Here's how we talk about who we are. We're not gonna control the words you use, but we do want you to see that's the peak and this is the path. And you can message people however you want," gives them freedom to do [00:17:00] that, but if you're... If this isn't, you know, the train's heading this way. The train's on these tracks, and it's heading to this mountaintop. you don't wanna go to that mountaintop, the time to get off the train
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: find another train, and we, we will wish you well, and we will send you on your way.
We'll give you the best recommendation you've ever seen in your frigging life. We hope to work with you. But why would we subject you to this when you're not even on board, right? It's not a matter of kicking people off. It's a matter of telling people, "Here's the destination. Do you wanna go there?" And they're like, no, I don't wanna...
That sounds terrible. I don't wanna go there." It's a, it's a courtesy.
Casey Cheshire: Hmm
Justin Brady: So this is why everyone wants to start, when they hire me, often they're just like, "Pitch us to the journal," "Create an event," or, you know, "Create a podcast for
Casey Cheshire: Right
Justin Brady: and, you know, "Create these things that bring customers in." I'm like, "Cool.
We can do that, and your customers are gonna look at that and say, 'I don't understand.'" Like, the, it's not gonna resonate because we didn't get the peak and the path first. You don't even know who [00:18:00] you are. And if you don't know who you are, you don't know who your audience is. You can't talk to them on a really, really deep level
Casey Cheshire: Yeah. You know, the companies that don't have this figured out, they, they sound like they have multiple personalities, right? They just... It's not cohesive. It's like you're talking to a crazy person who on one email is talking like this, and then on another something completely different. And I p- think people can pick up on that, the f- the, uh, the fact that those things are not aligned, and then it's almost like a warning sign
Justin Brady: I mean, the best example of this is go read the paper, doesn't matter which paper, and go find articles that are covering a topic in your subject area that you know a lot about. Read through it and realize how many times the journalist or the experts they were citing got it very, very, very, very wrong, This is a good look at how, um, at how, uh, what it looks like when you're trying to market to someone [00:19:00] else and you don't speak the language and you're not really an expert and you haven't thought about the messaging. This is what that looks like to people. So if you ever want to, you know, "Oh, it's not important to get all this messaging stuff, and vision and mission, and peak, and path, and purpose.
This stuff's not important. No one really cares that much," go read an article and tell ... that, that, on your subject area that is not accurate, and tell me how it makes you feel. It'll piss you off
Casey Cheshire: Man, I can see why you had shared earlier, like people just don't do this. A lot of companies don't do this. You know, I don't know of that many companies I've ever met even that can be that clear with me about what the peak is or...
Justin Brady: Very few.
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: few, right? But the ones that do really cut through the noise.
Casey Cheshire: Oh, yeah. Yeah, and you understand why they're doing it
Justin Brady: my wife and I are, like, big fans of, uh, Virgin Voyages,
Casey Cheshire: Hmm
Justin Brady: they... Like, this is one of the brands out there that I don't, I don't know how well they'll do in the fut- the, the, the, the product is insane.
It's absolutely insane. Um, I don't know who's leading their, their purpose over there, [00:20:00] or who's doing that. I don't know who it is, but that person has got it figured out. It might just be Richard Branson himself. But, um, when we went on the first one, 'cause we're like, "I like the idea of cruising. Uh, that sounds cool, hitting a bunch of destinations." don't like cruising, though, because I hadn't been on a cruise ship that I liked. I kinda thought it was a not a great experience. So my wife wanted to try this for her 40th, and I'm like, "Okay, cool. We'll try it," and we did a Mediterranean cruise. And was, like, creeped out, uh, in a good way because I'm like, dude, I feel like in the marketing office and the ops...
See, this is the thing. Their marketing matches their ops, matches the experience. Everyone was speaking the same lang- language. Everything is PR comms, communication and marketing. Everything is. Even the person who mops the floor, like, the way they respond to you builds that experience for you, right? And so everything is marketing.
That's why peak and, uh, purpose and path are so important, because everybody needs to speak that common language, and they do this so well. Like, I told my [00:21:00] wife, I was like, feel like they have our profiles in their back office and in their kitchen, they're like, 'This is what Justin and Vanessa really, really like. These are the things they like, and these are the...'" Like, I f- it was, it was down right to the, in the back they had, like, a Japanese tea bar, um, like, loose leaf teas, and a bourbon bar with, like, really high-end bourbons in the same... Like, I'm like, this is like if I would've built a ship, I would've built this.
They had a, they had, like, some of the entertainment was a bad comedian. Like, he was awful in, in, like, a funny way. Like, at first it starts out, I'm like, "What, what is this? Like, g- is this, like, low budge?" But then it was quickly apparent he was like, that was the shtick. Or sor- sorry, he was a terrible magician,
Casey Cheshire: Oh, chairman's, okay
Justin Brady: Aw- and then, but then sometimes he would do things that were, like, mind-blowing of course. But that was the shtick. It was, like, super corny and terrible and awkward, and I'm like, dude, it was m- totally, like, m- marketed to someone like me, [00:22:00] who like the traditional magician and comedian kinda like, "Ugh, that's kinda gross.
I don't really like that." And so this was almost mocking the industries, which was hilarious. So, like, you know, talk about an organization that really has this dialed in.
Casey Cheshire: Wow. And you could, you felt it, you experienced it throughout
Justin Brady: Every corner, every person I talked to, like they had all been to the same like, you know, communication course, or they had all... It, it w- um, amazing execution over there
Casey Cheshire: What do you think their peak is?
Justin Brady: I think the peak is probably something like high-end travel, uh, or luxury travel accessible to all. Something like that. I w- if I, if I were to guess
Casey Cheshire: You know, it looks cool. I'll, I'll let you know once the, uh, once we're not cruising with kids how it, how it goes for us.
Justin Brady: adults only, sadly.
Casey Cheshire: No, it looks cool, and, you know, their first headline was like, you know, cruise, you know, best cruise for adults, so cool, man. But it sounds like the vibe is just really good.
The-
Justin Brady: Yeah, and it's not like party atmosphere. I don't like the drunk [00:23:00] drinking a lot party thing. I hate that. I like it chill, respectful. Um, they don't, I don't think they do unlimited drink packages, so you're not getting like the hammered people.
Casey Cheshire: Got it
Justin Brady: You get some- you get basically the drunkest people I experienced were like the polite drunk if that makes sense.
Casey Cheshire: Yep
Justin Brady: back to their room, and they were like, "No, no, after you. Uh, you know." So, so Yeah, totally.
It was a good crowd
Casey Cheshire: Oh, that's good. That's good. And yeah, a good bourbon. You're not, you're not, you know, you're not pounding that. You're enjoying it
Justin Brady: Very true. Yeah. I mean, they know who they're targeting. They know their market
Casey Cheshire: Smart, smart. Um, e- even, even their labels. Uh, it's gotta be, uh, you know, Richard Branson type, uh, influence where he just picks these people and even the name of their cabins is like, you know, it's not like inside, outside. It's like the insider, you know? The social insider. I like being around people. I don't like being around people.
Whatever, whatever the case may be. It just sort of calls it [00:24:00] out.
Hey marketing leaders. It's Amanda here from Ringmaster B2B, podcasting in today's market. B2B buying is built on one thing, trust, and there's no better way to build that trust than through a podcast that builds connection at Ringmaster. We hope you launch and grow shows. That will amplify your brand and can help drive real demand.
The best part, we handle all the heavy lifting so you can focus on the big picture. So if you've been thinking about starting a podcast for your brand or taking your existing one to the next level, visit ringmaster.com to chat and book a call.
Casey Cheshire: Cool, man. Well, okay, so they're aligned. And so we got the peak, we got the path. You l- you lay, lay that out. You got the purpose, and it just sounds like everything else just flows from there
Justin Brady: Yeah, it's way easier. Everything else is way... 'Cause when you're writing messaging or marketing copy, web copy, you're creating an event, you're doing a, a pitch, um, to a publication of some kind, it all goes back to that's kind of your cornerstone. N- it's like your Rosetta Stone or [00:25:00] something. Um, everything goes back to that, and if it's not in line, then you can't use it.
And the reason I got into this is because when I was, I was first just doing, like, PR, uh, and, like, very narrowly focused on, like, pitching journalists and getting stories placed. I was j- I was just under the assumption that, you know, pitch great stories and that's it. And then I would get CEOs and, uh, on the phone with the Journal or the Post or whoever, and there was, like, this complete breakdown.
Casey Cheshire: Hmm.
Justin Brady: And I'm like, "I know what you're trying to say. I get it, 'cause I know you and I know what you do, but this is terrible. Like, you're not communicating this clearly at all. Like, you're, you're in tech, you sound like you're in, like an, in a- an auto mechanic the way you're... You know, like, this is... You're, you're talking about building in terms of, like, a real metal thing, not in terms of software."
Like, they're totally confused what you do. you know, they of course have, context of over the course of [00:26:00] years, so they understand what they do,
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: they're communicating puzzle pieces and in their brain they can see how these puzzle pieces fit into the internal brain puzzle, but the journalist just sees the individual pieces.
They don't see how they fit. And so I was like, "Well, this is a disaster." I... And so I, I would, like, do a lot of translating, uh, like, "What he's trying to say is," and then he'd be like, "Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say." But sometimes founders would would, like, talk about different, almost different products. Like, one would say, "Well, in the future we're going to be doing this." Then one guy's like, "Well, I thought we were doing this." And I'm like, "Dude, this is not the time to have this conversation." W- and so I realized that I needed to go, we needed to handle this communication thing first before we started pitching, and of course that translates to everything.
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: I noticed that when we did that, then all of a sudden sales was like, "Oh, that's a way easier way to communicate it." Or, or HR would be like, "Oh, I get it. I know who we need to hire now. I know the values we need to look for." And recruiters are like, "Oh, I [00:27:00] know how to message what we do so that we attract the right people." You know? And so,
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: that's why it's so key to start there. Now, I work on the external side as the eventual goal, but internally we start there, and we can hand it off to HR, we can hand it off to whoever.
Casey Cheshire: Sure
Justin Brady: HR, I don't do ops. You know, we stay in our lane, which is PR, comms, and GTM, but we do have to start with an internal understanding and getting people on, on the same internal page.
Casey Cheshire: Yeah, that, that makes sense.
Justin Brady: It can be, like I said, it can be super fast. It can
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: 48 hours, or it can be 30 days, but it has to happen. And I have had people say, "Well, can we just go straight to this stuff and not..." No. The answer is always no. Um, no, we have to do this first. It could be one day, it could be 30 days, depending on you, but we will be doing it.
Casey Cheshire: That is a good point, and I, I bet you a lot of people enter that phase thinking, "Yeah, we got this. This'll, this'll just take us... We'll be one of the 24-hour people."
Justin Brady: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Some, some. Yeah
Casey Cheshire: And [00:28:00] then they find out, yeah, they're, they're not, we're not one of the 24-hour people. I routinely have those ideas that happen and then, you know, whatever, um, team, um, or advisor or AI- even my AI is telling me, "No, this is not the time to introduce that new product idea.
Let it cook. Bring it up later. Don't bring it up now." So yeah, I could see how a little bit of filtering can be helpful, um, especially on the comms side, right? "Okay, stay on target. This is the time to talk about this. You know, your peak, your purp- Let's, let's talk about these things. Let's not go off on this product you haven't even launched yet, you haven't even tested it yet, but you're really excited about it."
Justin Brady: Yeah, some people don't wanna hear the big vision. They don't wanna hear the o- huge view, the thir- Some people want the granular details. And so yeah, you have to be very cognizant and respectful of the audience you're messaging. And again, this is why this matters, because some people will say, "Just be authentic." I'm like, well, no, because be [00:29:00] authentic. Um, be au- don't, don't lie to people, don't be untruthful. But true authenticity, like, you know, would be, in at least in my opinion, true authenticity would be like telling people your innermost, darkest political things and ranting about the political candidates that you hate.
Don't do that. Um, that would be un- that would be completely pure authenticity. Instead, it's be authentic as it pertains to the audience you're talking to.
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: I would talk to a 10-year-old way different about AI, agentic AI. I would talk up to a 10-year-old very different than I talk to someone my age, very different than I talk to someone that is 85, right?
These are gonna be different conversations. That doesn't make me inauthentic. That actually makes me more empathetic because I'm understanding where someone else comes from, and I'm framing the conversation so that they understand and they connect with me better. So that's what authenticity really looks like, and the only way you get there is by understanding at [00:30:00] least some common core idea first, and then you can go to these other audiences and message differently.
Messaging can vary, that's fine, but your overall company peak and path will never, ever, ever, ever vary. Now, you know, peak can change. Path can sometimes change every five to 10 years maybe, like if you're pivoting or found a different way to achieve your peak. Peak sometimes can change too, but that's rare.
It's, you know, maybe every 20 years maybe.
Casey Cheshire: Wow. Yeah. No, that, that makes sense. Um, yeah, it's like a North Star, right? You need to-- It needs to be the strong thing up there. If, if the North Star was changing every so often, we wouldn't be the North Star 'cause we wouldn't be able to rely on it.
Justin Brady: It is kind of a north... Sometimes I say, like, n- the North Star won't change.
Casey Cheshire: Hmm
Justin Brady: um, sometimes I tell people, like, "You're the captain of a ship, and you have to say, 'We're going that way.'" You know, 'cause you're, you can't just go in circles. And they're like, "Well, I don't know that way," 'cause, you know, founders will say this, "Well, we have to pivot a lot when we're, you know, trying to find our minimum viable [00:31:00] product, and we..." I was like, "Oh, yeah, get it. I get it. So what you need to do then is say, 'We're heading that way,' and then once you get that way and you find cliffs, that gives you a chance to have, to communicate to your staff and say, 'Hey, guys, I said we were heading this way. Here's why I said we were heading this way: 'cause the data was pointing that direction.
Now that we've gone down this path about a year, I've realized that's not the right way. We're going this way now, and here's why.'"
Casey Cheshire: Yeah.
Justin Brady: there's not this organization that constantly flexes and changes and because leadership wanted to and felt like it this morning, and the, the team are constantly saying, "Wait, I thought we were doing this."
"No, we're not doing that. We're doing this now." And they're like, "What did I sign up for?" You know? That, this prevents that. You can still pivot. You can still change. It just gives you hard milestones where now you can say, "Yeah, we documented this peak and path. Um, the peak's still viable. We're still heading to that mountaintop, but the path, turns out there's a cliff here, and we don't all wanna die.
So we're going to build a bridge, or we're going to go back down a little bit. [00:32:00] We're gonna find, um, you know, safer ground to cross." It gives you, as leadership, the opportunity to have that discussion, explain why you're cha- and then, y- you know, explain why you're changing and what we're gonna do about it. People are way less frustrated, and they stay focused on the vision, peak, et cetera
Casey Cheshire: Boom. There it is. My next question really, um, very nuanced, complicated question. Who are you? Who are you? How do you know these things? Can you, can you take me back in time, little you days?
Justin Brady: Lots of fail here.
Casey Cheshire: know you're gonna be, you know, leading through this and, you know, writ- writ- write... Yeah, I know, just a PR comms GTM guy, but no, like, i- in all the magazines and all the publications, you're leading companies through these tough times to figure out what these, these elements are so they can be aligned.
Like, what was it like growing up, you, you, like, little Justin?
Justin Brady: little Justin was frustrated about not being listened to. Um, I [00:33:00] remember back in, think it was college, I had a, a job revolutionary. And I think there was a, we invented this process. I worked at a hotel in Minneapolis, and we invented this process that increased revenue, just an hourly employee.
Um, after increasing revenue, like, the boss didn't get it and, like, tried to change it. And anyway, that whole experience frustrated me. I do remember, like, even as a kid, I didn't like to hang out with the other kids. Uh, I liked to hang out with the adults because that was more stimulating. I didn't understand what that meant, of course, but later I did. And so I think that maybe when you hang out with adults and you say things, and they're like, "You're just a dumb kid, what do you know?" That gets frustrating as a young child. Maybe that's what set me on this path. But, um, I don't know what the, I don't know what, what, the answer you're looking no
um, I think, um, the, the thing that sent me down this path is, just my continual... [00:34:00] When I, when I, there was a point when I said, "Hey, if I'm frustrated this happens to me, how many other people does this happen to?" And that's why when I wrote that Wall Street Journal piece, I wasn't doing GTN PR comms yet.
I was doing design. I had a graphic design company. And I started realizing that these problems existed in organizations all the time. And I was like, a minute, like, what separates a creative organization from a non-creative one isn't the ping pong tables and the stuff they put in place. That almost has no impact whatsoever. Like, I saw organizations that were wildly creative, and they were working out of a warehouse. And then I saw well-established Fortune 100s, um, that I got to speak to an executive or two, and I'm like, "You guys don't have a creative bone in your body." And what I realized is they both had the same creative folks. Leadership was the problem. Um, the leadership wasn't listening. It had nothing to do with the, the stuff. Uh, I was taking a tour of a local finance, financial firm, [00:35:00] and they had, like, ping pong tables and a cool game room, and I asked the tour guide, I was, 'cause it was like a new building and l- all the local
Casey Cheshire: Oh, of course
Justin Brady: got to tour it, and I asked the person, I was like, this?" Like, "Do people use this?" She's like, "No, not really." like, "Why not?" She's like, "Well, we only can use it before work hours and after work hours, and obviously people just want to go home." I'm like, build it?"
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: I was like, that was absurd. What kind of exercises was this?
Casey Cheshire: Yeah
Justin Brady: uh, and that's, you know, that kind of led down to, um, you know, uh, this creativity being in organizations people ignore, and that led to, oh, well, founders struggle with this all the time.
CMOs struggle with this all the time. They have amazing products and services that don't resonate, and they have no clue why. They still think the strategy is throw a bunch of things at the wall, test, see which one works, and, and then go after it. No. That's, like, you know, there's a reason that, like, has a, such a low success rate. [00:36:00] Um, but you can know Uh, to, to a, to a point, you can know what marketing tactics will work in advance if you just understand who your audience is and you speak their language a little better
Casey Cheshire: That authentic voice you were talking about. It, yeah, like it's, it's crazy how it doesn't have to be rocket science. Sometimes it is, it is just the basics and kinda like the basics of being a human too, and not trying to overthink and try to mask ourselves too much more than just, "Here's who I am, and here's what I'm going for, and here's the product."
And like, you know, just a little bit of clarity there can go a long way
Justin Brady: Well, Allison Braley, she is the, one of the partners, head of comms at Bain Capital Ventures, I think she was saying with one of their startups, I don't remember what the product was, I'm sorry, Allison, but, um, of their startups, she said, "We literally do the PR push, the big push, the big, like, founder kickoff thing where we invited..."
She's like, "We literally sponsored golf holes at certain [00:37:00] events." like, "Because we realized that all our target market did these things all the time, did these competitions all the time, and also were other sponsors." So she's like, "That's literally what we did, and it worked wonders." And so I always tell people from a GTM side, from a PR side, once the mis- messaging's done, everybody, um, never, ever, ever try to build a following from scratch. Never try to, you know, blast people. Instead Um, find out what their trust channels are, and this is one of the, this is like further, this is step three with organizations. But it's like, um, find out, if you have, you find out who all the, who this audience is that you want to go after. Like, you know, it's a bunch of these type of people.
We know who our audience is. Where do we find them? People are pat- Like, people fall into patterns all the time.
Casey Cheshire: For sure
Justin Brady: so go find out who they trust. find out who those people are that they trust. That could be alumni groups. That could be a golf tournament. That could be an event they go to. That could be newspapers they read.
There was one client [00:38:00] that we thought it was a tech audience. We thought it was, like, going to be a bunch of tech publications like Wired and TechCrunch and that kind of stuff. And so we surveyed and, um, we did some surveys. We did some interviews with all their current clients who were like rock stars and paid a lot of money and, like, their ideal customer. Um, which by the way, that's one of the cheat codes you can do this. Just go talk to a bunch of your current customers. Ask, "What do you read? What magazines do you read? What shows do you
Casey Cheshire: Yeah, just ask them
Justin Brady: are the..." Yeah, just ask them. Super easy. "Who are the authors you read?" So that's what we did. Turns out they all, like, a lot of their target were reading The Wall Street Journal and The Economist. I'm like, "What?" It's like that was not on my radar. Like, I always go into these things with a hypothesis. That wasn't on my radar. So we're like, "Okay, back up. I guess we're gonna go after these different publications," and ended up getting that company placed in the Wall Street Journal in a feature. So that's, um, like just a, you know, trust channels are key.
Now I guess land this plane here. Um, but, um, trust channels are very, very key in [00:39:00] understanding the channels that your audience already trusts and then going to those, I call them channel champions.
Casey Cheshire: Hmm.
Justin Brady: Uh, go, whoever that may be. At The Wall Street Journal, it's gonna be an editor, right? then give them something of value. Don't, don't, you know, don't make them hunt for the value. We're a new startup, and we raised $20 million. Pfft, they don't care. They really don't care. Instead, "Hey, Mr. Editor, hey writer, this thing that you write about a lot that you care deeply about, I have very precious information about that," or, "I have expertise about that," or, "I have new white paper about that," or, "I've, uh, have new research coming from a university about that." What do you have that's extremely valuable? Because it's not your company. It's not you. They don't care. It, you know, if, if you're, like, really well connected and Justin Timberlake, Michael Jordan, and Satya Nadella all invested in you, maybe that's a story. But really, it comes down to understanding that channel champion who controls the channel that all your audience is sub- sub- subscribed to or [00:40:00] follows or whatever. It's giving them something that is so valuable have to reach out to you, and at that point, you're trading that value for their reach
Casey Cheshire: Man. I feel like, uh, d- do you, I mean, do you have a book? I'm, I, I know we're gonna send people to justinkbrady.com and all sorts of other places, but like, I feel like you need, you need books and pod- where, where do we go to learn more about you and continue to learn from you?
Justin Brady: Uh, justinkbrady.com. Don't forget the K.
Casey Cheshire: With a K
Justin Brady: that's, yeah, that, you'll find that, um You can Google trust channels, and you'll find the whole guide there. No, I don't have a book. I actually tried to do a book years ago. Um, I think it was Wiley, Penguin Random House, and a couple others were interested. It was about trust channels.
Or no, sorry, it was about the LET principle that I wrote about in The Wall Street
Casey Cheshire: Okay
Justin Brady: And at the time, they said, "You don't have enough Twitter followers, and that concerns us, we're not gonna do the book. But we're really interested. Let us know if you get a bigger following [00:41:00] in the future." And so the, I don't remember, this was back 2014 maybe. Um, at the time, they were really obsessed with, like, major social media followings, um, publishers. They didn't know you could buy that.
Casey Cheshire: I was just gonna say
Justin Brady: they didn't know that yet. And I told my, uh, the literary agent, I was like, "Do they know that a lot of these are fake? That, like, some of the, are, uh, you know, do they know that I could just go buy 30,000 followers and call it a day?" He's ... And I, I don't remember what he said, but he's like, "I don't know. I don't know if they know that." And so fast-forward a couple years, I actually spoke to him a couple years ago, 'cause one of his authors pitched me for my show. Um, and I think that's why we were in touch. It do- it doesn't really matter, but he basically mentioned that a lot of these publishers were burned because all these fake influencers had fake followings, and they thought they were getting this massive, like, network of essentially people who were pre-sold, which turned out not to be the case. You know, we know now that some of these major influencers, um, there's [00:42:00] a difference between an influencer and entertainer. Like, there are some people we follow 'cause it's entertaining, but
Casey Cheshire: Yeah.
Justin Brady: suggest a product to buy, well, I don't, I don't trust you. I just think what you do is cool, but you can't, I don't wanna actually do business with you, you know?
Um, I think the first, there was one example. I think it was the Instagram handle Chloe. I don't even know if this account exists anymore. Millions of followers or something, and, um, American Apparel, I think, an apparel company did a deal with her to sell clothing, s- and I think she sold 30 T-shirts. Um, so again, it's like reach, yeah, this is why trust channels are so important.
Like, trust kinda matters. It's not about entertainment. It's not about getting attention. You know, people will often tell me, "Well, that PR thing got attention though." sure, I could get attention by taking a dump in a paper bag, lighting it on fire, and throwing it at the White House or at my local governor's mansion or at a senator's office.
I
Casey Cheshire: gosh
Justin Brady: attention for [00:43:00] that. It's not the right attention, and it, it will probably get you in prison,
Casey Cheshire: I was gonna
Justin Brady: do that. But you know, there is a such thing as right attention, you know? So
Casey Cheshire: Hey, you know what? Hey, whatever gets the views on this p- this show, man, when we get all the law enforcement agencies keep listening to this, you know, episode to kinda write, write you up in a case. You know, I'm innocent, I'm innocent. No, but
Justin Brady: I got so many views on X. I'm in prison, but man, I got the views.
Casey Cheshire: So, okay, so people go to the website, connect with you there. Um, it, yeah, there's a bunch of resources on your site. We'll definitely s-
Justin Brady: up on X,
Casey Cheshire: Eh,
Justin Brady: Brady.
Casey Cheshire: it is.
. So, okay, we'll link to all these things in the show notes. Justin, thank you so much for coming on here. Like, man, like it's so great to... I don't know if it's been great for you just to turn the tables, but it's so great to interview someone who's just constantly interviewing other people and to learn from you and...
But like, man, I, I'm fascinated and personally challenged now with Peak and Path, and I, I gotta sort that shit out, you know? And I will be [00:44:00] working on that, and I'll ping you later as well to, uh, circle back around on that because yeah, th- that is, it's so true. If you don't know where you're going, then how can you tell everyone else?
Justin Brady: Correct
Casey Cheshire: appreciate you being on here, man. Thank you so much
Justin Brady: Dude, Casey, thanks for having me on the show. K- uh, first time on Connect to Market, and it's quite an honor to be here, so thanks for the ask
Casey Cheshire: I appreciate you, man. For those listening, if you learned something, and I freaking know you did 'cause I got like two pages of notes over here front and back, then share this with someone else. One person, two people, three people. Definitely check out the resources. And, uh, with that, Justin, thanks again, sir.
Justin Brady: Thanks.
Casey Cheshire: Hey, another crazy cool and very exciting episode of Connect to Market: The Pod. We will see you all next time
[00:45:00]